I was home last week and saw this bunch of fairly well dressed men doing the rounds of pubs , bars etc. They stuck out in my mind as one or two were wearing good clothes and I thought to myself , hes begging and better dressed than me , strange. Anyhow the morning I was coming back I was getting a Taxi at about 4 and saw these same guys meeting up with several more Romas and all getting into this big 4 x 4 . I'm in the wrong business.

I am for movement within the EU but when your only aim is to sponge and live off the people who are good enough to host you then I have no time for them.
I have met people from every nationality working in Ireland but have yet to meet a roma working.

While I disagree with the way the Italians are going about this maybe the solution would be to not let people whos sole ambition in life is to live off others, into a country.

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Holiday Rental Apartment in Royal Palm

You have actualy seen a roma male! wow

Now why does this remind me of some areas on the coast in Tenerife???

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γνωθι σεαυτόν. And on the eighth day, god made the fossils

Interesting to see are the paintings of the many artists who painted gypsies. My favourite is Theodore Aman (Rumanian) and his painting of 'Gypsy girl' dated 1884. I object to the idea of lumping everyone together and making a ruling. The following are facts, my experiences, and not judgements.

There are so many different groups of Romani. As a teacher I have met those who have settled in an area and go to the countryside in June and July to pick fruit and live in the traditional way in 'vans,' with their horses in paddocks. Often the adult males are in prison for various offences but the families do care for each other and much can be learnt from that. The men often make an honest living through collecting scrap metal or felling trees and gardening. To be fair, this can be extremely remunerative. They integrate well into the local community but it is sometimes very difficult to keep the children in school although I have found the parents very generous and loyal despite their fear, as many are illiterate.

In our area a lot of the adult men make money through 'trotting': racing and heavy betting. They have posh cars and huge houses and don't ever forget something they have construed as an insult. It can breed a lot of fear in the community. Generally they respect their own area. sadly in-fighting often causes them to be banned from local pubs.

Travellers who leave piles of litter are not the true Romani and they have a more specific name which I won't mention. It isn't rude but is often used in a derogatory way. These are the ones most likely to steal and do not gain the respect of other travellers.

Another group have the Romani accent or an unusual Irish dialect. These have their own strict code of honesty which I once experienced.
Schools sometimes enrol a group of children from a local new site and discover that they have been baby-sitting them because a huge Romani funeral is taking place in the area, unbeknownst to the school. They disappear suddenly with their families and leave no trace except a pile of unused, named books; no mess on the site either. This happened to us and it fell to me to take a group of these children swimming. They handed me loads of gold earrings which I put in the zipper pocket of my bag. (First day...secretary had forgotten to tell parents that jewellery should not be worn.) The boys were terrified of the water and would not change in the communal changing rooms. They enjoyed the splashing activities at the end of the lesson! I distributed the earrings and the next morning an older girl arrived. "Me Mam says these aren't ours!" and handed me a pair of gold earrings. They belonged to a permanent member of the class who had forgotten about them. The vans were immaculate and obviously these were an affluent community.
A wedding on a Scandinavian street many years ago. The Hungarian Romani threw 90,000 kronor at the crowd of onlookers.
There is a big difference in the Romani who have come to eastern Europe recently. They are used to begging. And begging with babies as the emotional tug. Until a couple of years ago we only experienced this abroad or from the crone who tried to force us to buy dried sea lavender for luck instead of real lavender in the local market in England.

The Rumanian gypsy who sells the Big Issue outside Sainsbury's is very popular now. So many people stop to chat to her and she has improved her English from none to holding a lengthy, comprehensible conversation in just one year. She has told me that she is waiting for her blue? card in order to find work. I usually give her a coin each week but don't take the Big Issue.(Don't tell Mr. Margaretta). She spoilt it all a week ago when, instead of saying her usual 'thank you' she told me that it was her daughter's birthday the next day and she had no money for a present. It was the way she said it.......I felt uncomfortable and it was begging, but I have a daughter and I wouldn't want not to give her a present... Someone intervened. I didn't need to give.

Spanish and Italian Romani have great traditions and many tend to make money through trading, entertaining and horsemanship I think.
The Italian government may be protecting some of its people but do not seem to have considered the many diverse groups, cultures and their customs which guide their behaviour.

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"The years between fifty and seventy are the hardest. You are always being asked to do things and yet you are not decrepit enough to turn them down.
T.S. Eliot (1950)

The Irish traveller is called a knacker and the language is called gammon interestingly they have mixed very well with the new migrants and in some cases have even intermarried.

Thank you Margaretta - that was a fabulous post - and so eloquently puts the case why I found the ruling objectionable.

i remember in germany in my hometown years ago we always had the gypsy kids begging on the high street, and when they approached teenagers and especially younger girls and asked for anything valuable, of course no one would give them anything. the bad side was that when being rejected, they turned against you and followed you along and verbally threatened you that they would get their older brother to stab you etc...not really nice....many times i had witnessed then that the older of their clans would stand around the corner, well dressed and took the earnings of the kids away.

on the other hand, the roma always have been a huge problem in the czech republic and slovakia, it is a fact that the main crimes are committed by this ethnic manority and the czech government still doesn't really know how to deal with the problem. here is quite an interesting article about this subject....

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lost in translation?pm me for quotes

Thank you Cinnamon for that amazing document. I haven't read it all yet and it is a heavy but necessary requirement to make the rule about keeping free of a criminal charge for 5 years in order to 'belong'. That may be easy for most of us but when you are stateless, have no official bodies to rely upon and haven't got any security it may be easier to turn to crime.

It's interesting to ponder whether different 'levels' of crime should all receive the same punitive refusals stated. I need to read more but the security and well-being for children of any 'nomadic' family is surely the greatest priority. When time allows I shall certainly read more. The plight of the Romanis
is being very carefully considered in this lengthy document. I hope the UK has given them similar attention and compassion.

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"The years between fifty and seventy are the hardest. You are always being asked to do things and yet you are not decrepit enough to turn them down.
T.S. Eliot (1950)

I thought the last few posts from Margaretta and Cinnamon very instructive. I can appreciate the views and I admire both authors but I can not agree with a lot of the views and sentiments.

I do not think that any human being must be looked after and cared for, be they children or adults.
I do not agree that the UK should open its borderers and allow everyone who wants to come there walk in unchallenged.
I do not believe we have an endless supply of money and resources to allow the expansion of the human race to continue at the present rate.

I do not believe that the security and well-being for children of any 'nomadic' family is our greatest priority

I do believe we should try and do unto others as we would wish them to do unto us. But unfortunately they don’t and they do not learn by our example of “doing good”

At some point we have to shoulder our responsibilities and stop the thieving and the violence and this will mean that we will adopt measures that are often abhorrent to a civilised individual.

We can not “save” every child in Africa or alleviate their suffering; people will always die some sooner than others. We can not let our own old people rot in hospital corridors waiting for medical assistance whilst we are saving the world.

In the UK we do not do enough for our own a typical example being:
At the age of 79 my mother fell from a ladder broke her leg and waited 3 days in hospital for an operation, her friend 82 fell and broke her leg and waited 8 days for her operation. If some political gain could have been achieved then I’m sure this wouldn’t take place but “starving children are more news worthy”

Yes some Gypsies/Roma are trust worthy but unfortunately you have to generalise and you must protect the people who work and pay taxes providing the monies for caring for the “poor and unfortunate”. The Italians will be “damned if the do or damned if they don’t” at least they are doing something

Briz. There is a difference: you have given your views and I have given my experiences. Cinnamon gave facts and a document.

Your views are very strong on this matter and I appreciate many of them as some are held by the people around me.
But there is no compromise where children are concerned; we should never abandon them and their well-being and education. The services here should be available to them even if the families choose not to participate.

An international poll in the news this week (can't for the moment remember the source) gave the top of the 'most important life factor' list as 'Freedom'.
People must be able to live their lives as they wish...... as long as it doesn't affect others adversely. If it does, then there should be a firm and fair (to all parties) punitive system in place and a real effort to weed out the main transgressors. If these are in that 'special' anti-social group whose nickname I didn't type, then the police are often afraid of entering their domains and challenging them as was the case locally. This situation needs some addressing.
But not all Romani are like this at all and many groups are enterprising and very self-sufficient and talented: great builders, riders, guitarists, dancers, artists, and even the UK comedian, Joe Longthorne to describe a few of the most talented.

The situation with the plight of elderly people is not the fault of the Romani. It is a huge problem and one in which I am directly involved and have been for many years. It may be worth starting a new thread about the elderly.?

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"The years between fifty and seventy are the hardest. You are always being asked to do things and yet you are not decrepit enough to turn them down.
T.S. Eliot (1950)