Points of Grammar Thread

[Periklês]

I have a particular query, and then thought that it might be good idea to have a thread where experts could answer questions on specific points of grammar, rather than starting one thread per point.

I'll start: A query about a subjunctive. I think I can cope with most uses of the subjunctive, but I have just read this which is a dialogue between a boy and a girl:

- Hablamos de otra cosa.
Laurita, para variar, volvió a la cantinela que empezara quince días atrás.
- ¿Me quieres mucho?

To me, the sense is obvious, but can anybody explain the subjunctive empezara which makes no sense to me in context?

[CornflakeGirl]

i hope somebody can answer this (i can't) because it doesn't make any sense to me, either. i'd say "empezó", not using the subjuntivo...
my only explanation is that it could be translated as "she returned to the story that would have started 15 days ago/before", in which case you could see the story as one that hadn't really been mentioned before!?

[Periklês]

Originally Posted by CornflakeGirl

i hope somebody can answer this (i can't) because it doesn't make any sense to me, either. i'd say "empezó", not using the subjuntivo...
my only explanation is that it could be translated as "she returned to the story that would have started 15 days ago/before", in which case you could see the story as one that hadn't really been mentioned before!?

I'm glad it is puzzling someone else. If it hadn't been mentioned before, then how could she return to it?

Edit: I've just checked volver, and it can mean to turn. In this case, it could mean, as you say, she turned to the theme which she would have started 15 days ago. Yet cantilena to me suggests a recurring theme, in this case boy-girl speak, and the context suggests it's not new.

[CornflakeGirl]

i meant new to the reader

[Sir Old Golfer]

I too have spent most of my life pondering that same thought

[Treble99]

Originally Posted by Perikles

but can anybody explain the subjunctive empezara which makes no sense to me in context?

Before I do Mr Perikles, could someone explain what a subjunctive is?

[Sir Old Golfer]

Originally Posted by Treble99

Before I do Mr Perikles, could someone explain what a subjunctive is?

Its the underneath of a junction isnt it ?

[CornflakeGirl]

@trebble: it's a grammatical tense/mood in spanish whereby you express wishes, hopes and the like. it used to exist in english but is now only known in sentences like "Long live the Queen!" it's used a lot in spanish...

[Periklês]

Originally Posted by Treble99

Before I do Mr Perikles, could someone explain what a subjunctive is?

OK - here goes. A finite verb always has a mood, and it has to be one of these:

1) indicative (I sing)
2) interrogative (are you singing?)
3) imperative (sing, or I'll kill you)
4) optative (forget that one for Spanish)
5) conditional (I would sing....)
6) subjunctive (... if you were to pay me)

In Spanish, the subjunctive mood is used in specific instances where the action is a possibility or a suggestion, or in certain fixed expressions.
There is always a difference in meaning between a verb in the indicative (the 'normal' mood) and the subjunctive.

In my particular query, I don't see why the subjunctive is used, because I would have expected an ordinary indicative.

English speakers often have a problem with the subjunctive because it is not used much in English (and never in American) but it is most definitely there:

If I were you, I'd go.

The word were is usually an indicative past tense (they were tired), but in this case it is an imperfect subjunctive expressing an impossible hypothesis.

It would be better if he came tomorrow

This came is not an indicative past tense (He came yesterday) but a possibility for tomorrow, using a present subjunctive

OK?

[Periklês]

Originally Posted by CornflakeGirl

. it used to exist in english but is now only known in sentences like "Long live the Queen!"

Your example is an optative, not a subjunctive, but at least it is not an indicative.